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Some "Gordon" genealogy that probably doesn't pertain to me.

DNA is thought to mutate at a rate of .002 to .0038. What does that mean in terms of years, or generations. FTDNA's overview page says the rate of mutation is 500 generations, however the .0038 turns out to be 263 generarions.


The following table is a composite from testers on the Gordon DNA page. Trying to get the averages to see the possible relationships. These are loose averages in order to preserve any continuity. Also they are color coded in reference to my DNA. Remember I am looking for the place I fit. This is yDNA it only follows the male lineage.
  DNA, "Y" Chromosome, Segment; DYS#
Kit # Family
Dates, Location
or other
Pertinent
Information
H
a
p
l
o
g
r
o
u
p
3
9
3
3
9
0
1
9
3
9
1
3
8
5
a
3
8
5
b
4
2
6
3
8
8
4
3
9
3
8
9
|
1
3
9
2
3
8
9
|
2
4
5
8
4
5
9
a
4
5
9
b
4
5
5
4
5
4
4
4
7
4
3
7
4
4
8
4
4
9
4
6
4
a
4
6
4
b
4
6
4
c
4
6
4
d
4
6
0
G
A
T
A

H
4
Y
C
A

I
I

a
Y
C
A

I
I

b
4
5
6
6
0
7
5
7
6
5
7
0
C
D
Y

a
C
D
Y

b
4
4
2
4
3
8
Loci ---> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37
35965Eliphalet Gordon 1758- NH> NY> MI> MTI 13 23 14 10 14 15 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 23 16 21 29 11 14 14 16 10 10 19 21 14 14 17 19 36.5 38 12 10
 William Gordon b 1295 Lord of StrathbogieI 13 23 14 10 13 14.5 11 14 11.5 12 11 28 17 8 9 8 11 23 16 19 29 12 13 14 16 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
 Jock & Tam Gordon circa 1350 half brothers to Elizabeth belowI 13 22 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 22 16 20 25 12 14 15 16 11 9 19 21 15 14 16 19 35 37 12 10
 Alexander Seton/Elizabeth Gordon circa 1350R1b 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16.5 11 11 19 23 15 15 18.5 17 36 38 13 12

The R1b and the I haplogroups share the M94, M168, and M89(F) polymorphisms. The M89 change is thought to have occured around 45,000 year ago. Sometime in the 5,000 years after that, R1b has a change at M9(K) and a bit later, I has the M170(I)change. In View of that, there can be no Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA)in the last 40,000 years. You can find different opinion on the rate of mutation for these changes. Some say a change may occur as often as 200 generations others feel 500 generations is a better idea. If the scientists are correct that means there is no modern connection between the Seton/Gordons and the William/Jock-Tam Gordons. It also puts a huge gap in the William to Jock and Tam DNA. There are 7 or more steps for the averages of these 2 lines. If you get a change every 200 generations multiply that by the 7 steps, you find 1400 generation to the MCRA. 1400 generations times 20 years per generation puts the MRCA about 28,000 years ago.

That might knock a few holes in the Winton, Swinton, Seton, Gordon relationship theories. It would certianly be interesting to see some Seton, Swinton, and Winton DNA test results. The Seaton history seems to indicate they came from southern France, Flanders, and were in Normandy when Rollo and the Viking Horde arrived. Their DNA should be R1b. Seier de Lens (de Seaton) would be the father of the Scottish branch of this family. Swinton history starts with Edulf in 886, then to Liulf Bamburgh charter of Swinton in 1098

By the same token I have a genetic distance of approximately 10 to the William/Jock-Tam Gordon lines. Which would mean I am not related to them for 40,000 years.

The only thing that might help that timeline is a change in the accepted mutation rate. I have a DNA match with a fellow descendant of Alexander Gordon b 1635. There are 11 generations to the paper trail common ancestor. There is a single step on 1 red allele, again some scientist feel the red alleles mutate at a faster rate. They apply 1/2 value to the red allele, meaning it might mutate twice as fast as the black alleles. Making a change every 100 generations, perhaps.

It would certainly be easier to correlate if the mutation rate was like 10 or 20 generation.

Another thing that would be nice to see is mtDNA for some of the women who descend from those original Gordon women. In Iceland the majority of the men are Scandinavian while the women are mostly Saxon. Some speculate that this is indicative of the Viking culture, where some men settled in new lands and later returned and stole wives from Briton.

Some potentially interesting Gordon information.

Haplogroup I is thought to have its origins in Northwest Turkey. Macedonia has a 30%-40% density of haplogroup I peoples. It is certainly possible that the forefathers of the Gordons turned west rather than heading north with most of the other Haplogroup I peoples. I imagine they would have skirted the northern side of the Alps on their way to Flanders. Flanders is comprised of land in Belgium, France and the Netherlands. If you think about this table it seems to show a migration of Gordons from Turkey to Scotland.

Then again, my DNA is ultra norse, I1a-UN, which is thought to have originated in Norway. I1 is thought to have originated in Denmark or the far north of Germany.

So what part of history am I missing that would put my ancestors in Norway 6,000 years ago, and then in Belgium by 61BC?

Gordium

A city in ancient Cappadocia. Also known as Gordion . It would be near modern day Ankara Turkey. In this general vicinity King Gordius, of Phrygia, tied the Gordian Knot, which could only be untied by the future ruler of Asia. However Alexander the Great sliced it open with his sword in 334 B.C. Gordium was started around 2000 B.C. and was deserted by 200 A.D.

Gordonia

A city in Macedonia. Makedonia is the northern part of Greece, it included a parts of what is now referred to as Yugoslavia, and Bulgaria. About 2100 B.C. these people began the push south into what would become Greece.

Gorduni

The city of Ghent (Gent), in Flanders (Belgium), just north of Normandy, was attacked by the Romans, in 61 B.C. Romans called the people who defended this city Gorduni. This would predate the arrival of Rollo and his Viking Horde, at about 911 A.D., by a considerable time. I see that the root of the word Normandy is the Latin word Northmanni. Isn't the i on the end of that word similar to the s we use to designate a plural?

Sir John Gordoun

Created a Duke by Charlemagne in 790 A.D. He was Constable of France and he conquered Brittany. His home was the Castle of Moret, where he died.

Gurdon

Manor of Guerdon is in Normandy. The Guerdons exported some of there family to Hampshire England in the 1000- 1066 A.D. time frame. They used the name Gurdon. Some have surmised these were the lesser sons of Norman nobles.

Gordon village

Located in Berwickshire. Some say this is the area of the earliest home of the Gordons, in Scotland. Not far from the English border.

Adam de Gordoun

Born about 1028. The first Gordon in Scotland around 1057 A.D. Potentialy the father of the Scottish Gordons. He accompanied the Earl of Northumbria into Scotland to replace Malcolm on the Scotish throne. Adam was killed on November 13th 1093 while fighting along side King Malcolm, both men lost their lives.